tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3985121092777596782.post1561795464214886167..comments2024-03-26T08:09:21.773+01:00Comments on Tiny Tin Men: "The figure is only a token!"Bart Vettershttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13113805481100294725noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3985121092777596782.post-5828313553072600002017-01-17T11:11:00.870+01:002017-01-17T11:11:00.870+01:00Totally agree the "look and feel" is ver...Totally agree the "look and feel" is very important. I think that in a well designed game, the "look and feel" should be accounted for as well, i.e. you cannot seperate the rules completely from the visual representation.<br /><br />As for hexes - I see your point, but being a hex fan myself, I have found ways to integrate them in the "look" of the game ;-)Phil Dutréhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13607941040736764291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3985121092777596782.post-36456052524917084232017-01-16T16:10:16.446+01:002017-01-16T16:10:16.446+01:00Phil- Can't disagree with most of that. But th...Phil- Can't disagree with most of that. But the clue is in the title- MINIATURES wargaming therefore the use on miniatures seems to be part of it and therefore logically they should have a part. I has become as you infer quite common -especially amongst "games designers" to denigrate the actual minis- unless they are getting paid for them of course (No I do not design "games" )<br /> However despite comments to the contrary splattered all over the place not everything in MINIATURES wargaming is slaved to the needs of the game. Part of the point- at least for some of us is the visual and in my case sort of historical experience. Pretty toy soldiers and pretty terrain are part of that. Which is why I don't- for instance use HeXes- they jar my sensibilities however parctical they may be in games terms..<br /> The "look of the thing" is of major - if not always prime importance. Big Andyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17235478427317774609noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3985121092777596782.post-37184491147047917802017-01-16T10:12:53.671+01:002017-01-16T10:12:53.671+01:00Norm,
I agree with your comments. The "token...Norm,<br /><br />I agree with your comments. The "tokens" we use fulfill a role, the draw us into the game experience. So, a good game needs a well-thought out representation. In the best games, rules, representation, visuals, ... all belnd into a coherent whole that "feels right".<br /><br />BTW, I am also totally in the hex-gridded camp!Phil Dutréhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13607941040736764291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3985121092777596782.post-25077100540968672632017-01-16T10:09:54.995+01:002017-01-16T10:09:54.995+01:00I was not so much targeting cardboard representati...I was not so much targeting cardboard representations, but rather the idea that "since a figure is just a token, it doesn't matter what scale or representation you use". I think the use of painted miniatures is essential to miniature wargaming, not only for the visual esthetics, but also for the experience as a whole. Take away a proper representation, and the game loses much of its meaning.Phil Dutréhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13607941040736764291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3985121092777596782.post-19988448169471038432017-01-16T10:07:54.882+01:002017-01-16T10:07:54.882+01:00Thanks!Thanks!Phil Dutréhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13607941040736764291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3985121092777596782.post-21109666710869618712017-01-14T07:03:43.758+01:002017-01-14T07:03:43.758+01:00Good post Phil, I agree with the underlying princi...Good post Phil, I agree with the underlying principle of all you say, but as a user of hexes in miniatures I would go a little further and say that everything is fundamentally a token and that there is less difference anyway between a boardgame and a figure game.<br /><br />Going specifically to a boardgame, I have been playing them for 40 years and have often wondered why games that essentially end up with 1 - 3 counters attacking 1 counter, with modifiers for terrain and commonly an odds ratio or differential attack etc can prove so endlessly fascinating, but of course it is the nuances that get you to that point that tick the boxes and the immersion of play. The map and counters to me provide sufficient aesthetic and accuracy to 'be there'.<br /><br />In a figure game there is absolutely no reason whatsoever why a game cannot be run totally of 2D cardboard terrain and counters - it will without exception, mechanically work. But the figures themselves are bringing an extra dimension to the game, whether that be purely aesthetic for its own sake or it helps the player mentally to 'be there' probably depends on the particular take of the gamer.<br /><br />I think it is because I hold this position that I find it second nature to figure game on a hexed grid. Interestingly, (I have hexed all my life) I find a square grid kind of jars and interrupts my mindset, so I can see how many figure figures would feel the same about hexed tables - a sort of unnatural visual interruption that disrupts their comfort of the table.<br /><br />Anyway, what I am saying is that figures are not essential to mechanics, they are simply doing something else for us, satisfying another need. I love both miniatures and boardgames, but I will go to a miniatures draw, handle and admire the figures, even when not gaming, but do not do the same to my boardgames. However, I will dig out the rulebooks if both and immerse myself in their mechanics.<br /><br /> Your own comfort at doing 'crossover' gaming between miniature and hex probably makes your post easy and natural to write, for some, that crossover will never sit easily and so their 'take' on the perspective you offer is almost certainly bound to differ.<br /><br />For me the fascinating aspect of the argument is how come mechanically 3D and 2D wargaming is mechanically the same but our minds are locked in to different takes on what is either pleasing or even acceptable and these might sit outside of practical factors such as budget and playing space and time.Normhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05031444717952755557noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3985121092777596782.post-58663199205341698652017-01-14T05:18:38.642+01:002017-01-14T05:18:38.642+01:00An interesting analysis, but I'd disagree with...An interesting analysis, but I'd disagree with you on a couple of points;<br /><br />Firstly, I don't believe that you have to use miniatures in all games i.e. really small scales. I, as a predominately 25-28mm wargamer cannot see the point in painting & basing up 2mm or even 6mm in some cases when you can hardly see them at on the tabletop. You shouldn't have to get down to tabletop level so that you can identify your mini's. I think the use of detailed card "tokens" would suffice in these cases.<br /><br />Lastly I'd say that there are some great cardboard "tokens" that you can get now. A lot better quality & artwork and at affordable prices than was previously available just a few years ago. I think as long as you can represent your "playing pieces" with something artistic it can be just as good as with "proper" miniatures.<br /><br />Actually, on reflection, I may have misinterpreted your point a little. Do you distinguish between tokens & cardboard representations? I mean, a token can be just a bit of paper with something scribbled on it. Whereas a cardboard "token" can have amazing artwork on it. I'd be interested to know your thoughts on these two points.<br /><br /><br />A great post, I wholeheartedly agree with just about every point you made :) <br /><br /> Mr Papafakishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05449586265828153638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3985121092777596782.post-20383956505650786452017-01-14T02:47:52.834+01:002017-01-14T02:47:52.834+01:00Great thoughts, cheers!Great thoughts, cheers!Chasseurhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04919997382932080898noreply@blogger.com